Let's talk about DM game play...

[Odedge]

After a year of UT 3 and all of the custom maps that have been made, I feel the one area that has been lacking is the traditional DM game play. A level that has 3 key elements; flow, risk vs. reward, and z-axis fighting.

While it's easy to understand them, it's harder to put them into a map. For my next map, I will be focusing on and hopefully learning how to build a map that follows the 3 key elements.

Please discuss your point of view as either a player or map maker (I fall into both categories) on what makes a map fun to play and give examples, if possible.

If you are a player, mention a map or an area of a map (post a screenshot if needed) that is fun to play. If you are a mapper, please share with us your thought process into designing the game play elements of your map.

[SEBASTIEN-NOVA]

first of all,
I have to say I make the same report of you, I'm often disappointed by the custom DM maps I play on this game.
I explain :
Their are often "eye candy", with massive use of post-process and other effects, customs stuff etc... when you see screenshot, you say whooo, I DL it now!!!
But unfortunately, when you try it, it's annoying to play or just unplayable in most case. Where is the gameplay in those maps? Where is the fun to play those nice but boring maps?


As a gamer, I love play "small" map, I mean a map where you don't have to run for a long time to find a weapon or an adversary.
I like action/hardcore gameplay (The first FPS I ever play is Q3 Arena, maybe it's a reason...), and to obtain that I usually put lots of bots inside (20 to 31). I don't try to make some flawless victory with camping, snipping..., I try and I make a real carnage on the map, I want listen the game howl me I'm a "massacre", "Monster kill" etc...
For me, this game mode (DM) is based on action and frags, it's not made to have a touristic journey...


As a mapper, of course I make my flow/gameplay according to my way of play (a flow who allow fast and fluid movements, multiple ways to runaway, weapon easily reachable, not very long corridors... for a maximum action)

As for the rewards, I use 2 differents way to place it according to the result I want to obtain.
I mean, Sometime I put a Powerup in an really easy access so I'm shure this place will be a hot spot for action.
And sometime I wil prefer the regular way and put it on hard reachable place or in a hidden/secret place.

As for z-axis, I'm must say it's not really my priority, it's depending of the environement/building I have started. But it's true it's an important stuff of the gameplay.

And their are lots of others important stuffs to take care, as health and ammo placement for example...

But I don't say either we have to sacrified the visual of the map !
Mappers have to focus in first to the flow/gameplay but when it's done, they have to work on the decor of course, it's an important part of the good or bad feeling we can have to play a map.

[EpicJon]

Lol the "3 key elements"

I've been mapping since UT and i've never heard of it.

I would say that what makes the map fun is about 25% the map maker for providing the environment, but the other 75% goes to the players. Because if your playing with different people, its unique.

When your mapping, the primary thing you think of most is just decorating your layout. Your not worried at all if it will be fun or not. Although it probably will be, its not like its a dramatic factor in mapping. I usually draw out a layout that i think would be fun to run around.

-EJon

[TheAgent]

The 3 key elements is very real. And ive implemented it in ut2004 and 2004 maps before, and following these is very helpeful, it is true that i havent seen these implemted at all in many new maps, just alot of visual but no play. even some of epics maps are father dull, visually pleasing but, it gets repetitive and boring.

If you want to create a rather risky but rewarding situation, you just place a powerup in persay a dead end, where a player can kill u while u turn around, yet you have a advatage as you lets say have double damage. or put it in water so you go slow to reach for it, but once taken you are faster, etc..

when it comes to flow, make rooms with multiple exits not just once. its bad to get in a room and while in a intense fight the player with the most powerful weapon can kill you, and you have no means of escape unless you kill him with an enforcer and exit trhough the only door. this will be annoying, there fore its always to have multiple exits. also that exit could lead up to the second floor and can have a hole in the roof as u run u pick up a flak cannon and you drop down and kill the very player that tried to kill you. it adds to the fun and makes things suprising. (z axis fighting)

hope that helps a little bit

[Odedge]

Originally Posted by SEBASTIEN-NOVA

Their are often "eye candy", with massive use of post-process and other effects, customs stuff etc... when you see screenshot, you say whooo, I DL it now!!!
But unfortunately, when you try it, it's annoying to play or just unplayable in most case. Where is the gameplay in those maps? Where is the fun to play those nice but boring maps?

Agreed (obviously). Out of the many, many maps I have downloaded, very few really offer the traditional DM game play. Most of them are from the HOLP and CBP packs.

That's why I like to play the HOLP packs. They are fun to play and considering they focus mostly on using BSP, they still look good. I don't want every map to have this type of layout, but I think enough of them don't.

As a gamer, I love play "small" map, I mean a map where you don't have to run for a long time to find a weapon or an adversary. For me, this game mode (DM) is based on action and frags, it's not made to have a touristic journey...

Good point, you might want to check out the "rocks and shoals" map in the beta section.

As for z-axis, I'm must say it's not really my priority, it's depending of the environement/building I have started. But it's true it's an important stuff of the gameplay.

There has to be a balance. If there is not Z-axis fighting, you just need to look straight around you. If you always had to check every possible angle around you, that would drive you nuts too.

And their are lots of others important stuffs to take care, as health and ammo placement for example...

True, but I think the layout is the foundation and everything else should follow it's lead. You still need to take into consideration the theme and how it will relate to the layout, which is another topic all together.

But I don't say either we have to sacrified the visual of the map !
Mappers have to focus in first to the flow/gameplay but when it's done, they have to work on the decor of course, it's an important part of the good or bad feeling we can have to play a map.

Since most of us build maps as a hobby, we all have different motivation for spending the time making them. But I see a map maker as a level designer first. You need to create a place where people want to play it first, then remark at it's visuals.

A map like Salvation/August (CBB 3) obviously can offer a player the entire package. Though these are mappers with a lot of experience/skill and may have professional experience. But I have also seen amateurs make very nice maps as well.

Originally Posted by EpicJon

Lol the "3 key elements"

I've been mapping since UT and i've never heard of it.

Why is this funny? It's not "the" but 3 key elements, but there can be more. That's why this thread exists, to discuss them.

I would say that what makes the map fun is about 25% the map maker for providing the environment, but the other 75% goes to the players. Because if your playing with different people, its unique.

I can see that being true. The map has to give you a good foundation. Having a big cube, will going boring fast for many people, no matter who you're playing with. But having players that keep you on your toes, can increase the playability of the map. Though the map has to encourage/support this.

When your mapping, the primary thing you think of most is just decorating your layout. Your not worried at all if it will be fun or not. Although it probably will be, its not like its a dramatic factor in mapping. I usually draw out a layout that i think would be fun to run around.

I would have to disgaree with you on this. A map is one of the most changeable factors that can influence the "fun factor" of the game. Just take the different varieties of stock maps. Diesel is nothing like Rising Sun which is nothing like Sanctuary. I can find a fun game to play in all three, but Diesel is by far the best. The game mechanics are the same, it's the map that's the difference.
-EJon[/quote]

[quote=TheAgent;25783962]The 3 key elements is very real. And ive implemented it in ut2004 and 2004 maps before, and following these is very helpeful, it is true that i havent seen these implemted at all in many new maps, just alot of visual but no play. even some of epics maps are father dull, visually pleasing but, it gets repetitive and boring.[quote]

I guess I am missing the maps from UT2004 to a degree.

If you want to create a rather risky but rewarding situation, you just place a powerup in persay a dead end, where a player can kill u while u turn around, yet you have a advatage as you lets say have double damage. or put it in water so you go slow to reach for it, but once taken you are faster, etc..

when it comes to flow, make rooms with multiple exits not just once. its bad to get in a room and while in a intense fight the player with the most powerful weapon can kill you, and you have no means of escape unless you kill him with an enforcer and exit trhough the only door. this will be annoying, there fore its always to have multiple exits. also that exit could lead up to the second floor and can have a hole in the roof as u run u pick up a flak cannon and you drop down and kill the very player that tried to kill you. it adds to the fun and makes things suprising. (z axis fighting)

hope that helps a little bit

It does help and I already know this. My problem comes from creating the actual layout to do this. I have a hard time looking at nothing and creating something. I tend to do better at looking at something and making it better (that's why I like to beta test maps. ).

I am more interested in how people go abut deciding (their thought process) what to do when designing the layout of their map.

I just got done with a remake of DM-Antalus. I knew what I liked about it and didn't like, so the changes were rather easy. But creating an original map layout, it's not as easy.

Thanks for everyone's response. Sometimes I find that the mere discussion of something can stimulate the mind to find a so-called solution.

[TheAgent]

HAHA i see what you mean try looking at some photos, or what i do i make a hallway, and look into the enviroments package and make a detailed hallway, with a random theme. if i like the theme or style that seemed to rise from the, random hallway i'll make a room and add supports and etc. then i'll create a layout with bsp, and test play the map, Note: i didnt delete the original visually finished corridor/hallway and made the rest of the level with just bsp) and i'll play it to test it for flow. if im not satisfied i'll rearrange add flow and all that good stuff, then i'll start building the visuals using the theme of the corridor as a base.

Ive been mapping since 2003 and take forever to make levels, but i dont use this method anymore and i am a very craetive/visual person. i just create as i go, like to do alot of trial and error. but if your begining try what i used to do, or draw a layout from top view on a piece of paper. doesnt have to be detailed just a bunch of boxy corrdors and rooms to start you off. PM me with if anything and i'll show u examples of how i would draw the top view skecth. =)

Edit: walk around your neighborhood, of go downtown and look for objects that stick out to you, just search, when your going to work or school or just driving around or with freinds. if something randomly attracts your attention ( even if its a hot babe lol) what attracted you to it? what color did it have? its shape rough or smooth? take these into consideration as it might give u an idea for a style visual color etc for a map. =)

[SEBASTIEN-NOVA]

Originally Posted by EpicJon

Lol the "3 key elements"

I've been mapping since UT and i've never heard of it.
-EJon

If you don't know what Odedge speak about, maybe you can take a look to that :

http://www.hourences.com/book/bookgameplay.htm

or just google about level design theory, you will find a lot of interesting stuffs...

It's can help you to increase the gameplay on your next maps.
For me, It's not really some rules you have to follow imperatively step by step, but rather a kind of philosophy to keep in mind when you work on a level.

Originally Posted by Odedge

That's why I like to play the HOLP packs. They are fun to play and considering they focus mostly on using BSP, they still look good. I don't want every map to have this type of layout, but I think enough of them don't.

Same for me

[SEBASTIEN-NOVA]

Originally Posted by EpicJon

When your mapping, the primary thing you think of most is just decorating your layout. Your not worried at all if it will be fun or not. Although it probably will be, its not like its a dramatic factor in mapping.

It's an error I have done by the past too on some of my ut2k4 maps.
I have focussed on visual and when it will been finished, I was very proud of me...but when I had tried to play on it, I was very disapointed...
A nice map, but unplayable, do not the job...

[TheAgent]

Originally Posted by SEBASTIEN-NOVA

It's an error I have done by the past too on some of my ut2k4 maps.
I have focussed on visual and when it will been finished, I was very proud of me...but when I had tried to play on it, I was very disapointed...
A nice map, but unplayable, do not the job...

To go back to the main topic, a simple map can be fun.

Example: Rankin, its flow is great, however the best part of the map is the rocket area, its 3 floors and provides alot of z axis play, its where a portion of the action is. If your going to make a map, and if there are 3 sections, have the most one powerful weapon in one section like, the rocket in the first room then some second floors etc to addd z axis, and then the flak cannon in the 2nd room this roomshould have more than one exit as flaks ricohette around , maybe the shock rifle in another or w/e. you might already now this but its just fun to remind people of how weapon placement can make things interesting xD

In any case, lighting can help you create a map, and give you ideas on how to make a map, and also attract a player to a trap or a weapon health etc. It adds to the visual appeal and gameplay of the map. =)

[SEBASTIEN-NOVA]

Originally Posted by TheAgent

In any case, lighting can help you create a map, and give you ideas on how to make a map, and also attract a player to a trap or a weapon health etc. It adds to the visual appeal and gameplay of the map. =)

I totally agree, visual can (and have to) reinforce the flow to help the player to find more quickly what he looking for.